bjarvis | Square Dance Etiquette Question

I don't know. The pre-emptive thing is what I do to avoid people I don't like, but no one makes me feel "uncomfortable." That's something different. Maybe I'd try to be a bad dance partner: Bad handholds. Stares of death. No conversation. Stepping on feet. Anything but actually dealing with the problem.

We had someone like this in one of my square dance clubs.

Larry & I called him "The Mass Murderer." He looked precisely like the classic movie stereotype of a nerd who works at the post office, and one day just SNAP!s and takes an AK-47 to everyone in sight.

He wasn't terribly pleasant to dance with, either as a partner or in a square. He wasn't rude ... he was just creepy. Didn't talk a lot, and the few times he did, I went back to wishing he wouldn't talk at all.

The only way I can think of to deal with this is to ensure you have a partner already arranged for the next tip. Many dancers in the Bay Area make it a practice to arrange square-up partners at least one tip in advance, precisely to avoid this type of situation. "Oh, I'm so sorry ... I'd already promised this dance to _____. Thanks for asking!"

Any other response I can think of would be rude at best.

But I'm looking forward to seeing what suggestions other people have...

Now that you mention it, I can think of one person I've encountered over the years who was like your "Mass Murderer." He was unfailingly polite and an adequate dancer, but there was something about him that set off alarm bells in my head. Loudly. If I couldn't avoid dancing with him, I always felt compelled to go wash my hands immediately after.

If he was at an event, I always lined up a partner in advance to avoid him. Of course, that didn't guarantee he wouldn't be my corner, but it was the best I could do.

If [undesired person] was at an event, I always lined up a partner in advance to avoid him. Of course, that didn't guarantee he wouldn't be my corner, but it was the best I could do.

You see? you DO know what the polite thing to do is.

I have never sq danced in my life however similar situation can be found in almost all social events. I think it comes down to your personality. I would have no problem just telling the guy straight up that I wasn't comfortable dancing with him. And if he asked why, just say it doesn't matter why, thats just how I feel. I guess over time you can learn to be an asshole in a really nice way.

This is probably the closest I've come to a semi-solution. I think the trick is to have a script of some kind, a means of saying "thanks, but I'm just not comfortable dancing with you," but still allow both parties to save face. I'm just not sure how to do that yet.

A simple, "No, thank you," has worked for me in the past. Or I sit one out (I'm talking contras, not squares, but the philosophy is the same).

We used to have a creepy straight guy who would sometimes come to our queer contras. He was my opposite at one point, and was in the follower's role. During a swing, he refused to hold his own weight (he is a very experienced dancer and knows all about holding his own weight). I said, "Next time you do that, I'm going to let you go." During the next pass of the dance, we again had to swing, he didn't hold his weight, and gave me a smile that was supposed to put me in my place. I grinned back at him, and let go. He went flying across the dance floor. He held his own weight for the rest of the evening, and hasn't been back since.

Oooo, I wish I had been there to witness that! :-)

Me too! Way to go P2W!!!!!

I hate hate hate experienced dancers who, for whatever reasons, treat others like shit. I've had people do that to me. Since I am not the stereotypical stick-figure female 20-something contra dancer, many people assume I can't dance and that I don't somehow deserve the basic courtesy they'd extend "one of their own."

Pisses me off.

20 something contra dancer? Lord, most dancers I know are twice that!

Me too, but not the popular ones at Glen Echo on Friday nights in DC :P

At least.

one shouldn't have to sacrifice one's own participation in an event just because of one individual.

Well, yes, one does. It's not necessarily fair, but it's the etiquette for all dance. I don't do squares, or at least not modern western ones, but I have to assume the etiquette is the same as Emily Post once wrote. One is always free to say no when asked to dance, and a reason is not required, but it is rude to then dance with another person.

Strictly speaking, that's dance etiquette.

Well, yes, one does.

I disagree. If a person continually insists on grabbing me for a dance and I am not comfortable with his/her approach & refusal to take a hint, I should not be compelled to give up my preferred social outlet. Having to sit out is bad: it costs money, time & effort to attend. Biting the bullet and dancing with such a person is also bad: it rewards their obsession and/or bad behaviour.

Etiquette is a guide of practises for getting along in a suitable way with other people. It strikes me as a violation of the basic principle to say that I'm not allowed to dance with anyone if I refuse to dance with one particular person. It would take only one dedicated sociopath to destroy an entire club. I'm sure there's a better solution.

I think "sociopath" is a little over-the-top, and it polarises the responses. Sure there are some icky people that you'd rather not dance with. If your group is afflicted with one, and you rilly don't want to dance with him, then you're obliged to ensure that your own dancecard is pre-filled. Given enough declines, the undesired person will get the hint and not show up.

It also depends on what you mean by "grabbing me for a dance" -- if you mean physically grabbing your shoulder, you can lift the offending hand off and say in frosty manner "please don't do that" and walk away - you don't have to answer the "do ya wanna dance" question.

You are not helpless on the couch, unlike the ladies of Jane Austen's day, waiting to be picked off by nice men or nasty. Fill your own dancecard in advance and you won't have the problem.

biting the bullet and dancing with such a person is also bad: it also rewards their obsession and/or bad behaviour

how is this any different from other people accepting your invitations to dance? I'm not saying that you're obsessed or behave badly, I'm saying that the loaded words in your sentence don't help assess the situation with Undesired Dancer AB. A simple "no thank you" is the phrase you need.

Etiquette is a guide of practices for getting along in a suitable way with other people -- Agreed.

It strikes me as a violation of the basic principle to say that I'm not allowed to dance with ANYONE if I refuse to dance with one particular person -- WHAT basic principle? Being polite to everyone? If you snub someone -- and declining to dance with AB, for reasons other than "I've already promised this dance to CD", and subsequently accepting an invitation to dance from EF is a snub -- then you're not being polite to everyone, or in your phrase "getting along in a suitable way with other people". You don't have to sit out for the entire evening, you just have to sit out one dance. Use that time to line someone up for the tip after that. The best defence is to arrange your dances before AB heaves up over the horizon. And if enough people do that, then AB won't have opportunity to destroy an entire club.

And if you do dance with him once, you could certainly decline subsequent dances with "we've danced already this evening".

i agree. that's been the etiquette for hundreds of years - you can read about it in Jane Austen [most clearly in Northanger Abbey, but also in Pride and Prejudice]. There are three choices - a) accept, b) decline because one has promised this dance to (someone else), or c) decline (because "I'm sitting this one out".) It's rude to say a simple "no" and then dance with someone else.

Now in the days of Jane Austen, men had the role of asking, ladies only had the power of accepting or declining; and once they declined they were out for the balance of the evening. These days, while anyone can ask, and you could get up and boogie in a later dance after declining for this one, it's still rude to say no and then stand up with someone else.

Human nature hasn't changed in 200 years. If you decline, you sit one out.

Here here! This was one of the great things about dance cards. But I think, even back in the day, a lady was still free to dance the next dance with whomever asked her. If a troll asked her if she cared to Waltz she could politely decline (This is what I mean about not being required to give a reason, the polite response is, "Oh, thank you, but I think I'm going to sit this one out"), but she was still free to Gavotte if that was the next dance played, and an acceptable partner presented himself.

The same is true now at a 2-step, English, Contra, and I assume Square.

But Brian is right, there are toxic dancers. And such people rarely take the clue that an entire square would rather sit out than dance with him or her. So what can one do? I don't know. I chose to follow the rules set before me, even if they seem antiquated.

So, I have danced with some horible dancers. There's one in particular who does most of the same forms I do. As a 2-stepper he has lousy frame, forgets his foot-work, follows poorly and leads slopily. As an English and Contra dancer he also has lousy frame and can't seem to remember a pattern even when we've been dancing the figure for 5 minutes. He's also awkward socially, monopolizing conversations or intruding upon them unwelcomely. I have said no to him and found myself sitting out some lovely dances. On the other hand, I have said yes for the sake of a set, or because it was a particularly favourite song or dance, and had the experience nearly spoiled.

Rules of ettiquette for polite society exist so that no-ones feelings are hurt. This includes the toxic dancers.

"Toxic dancers"... I like that. :-)

Typically, I have sat out sets rather than dance with an objectionable person, but then again, I've never been continuously pursued more than a couple of times. Either my would-be admirer got the hint or I'm not worth pursuing but either way, the situation was saved.

The person who posed the original question to me may have a lower threshold for toxicity, or may actually be a pursued by a true stalker. At his particular dance level (intro), his opportunities to dance are somewhat limited so sitting out more than two or three sets means losing the whole night. Recruitment is tough enough: I'd rather not lose a new person so quickly.

So if one does not wish to dance with our all-too-friendly friendly neighbourhood stalker, that person is obliged to a) feed his obsession, b) pre-book partners for an entire evening well in advance, or c) never dance again? This doesn't seem right to me.

In the days of Jane Austen, people only danced with their same social class, formal events were invitation-only & closed to the public and anyone deemed inappropriate was blocked at the gates of the estate or at least the manor door by the servants. We lack almost all of the features these days so I think we need to update our rules just a little.

Come to think of it, how does Emily Post recommend one deal with stalkers and/or sociopaths in general? I'm sure she has a suitable way of dispatching a repeated unwanted advance.

Have none of us ever been approached in a bar by someone we just didn't want to be with, carnally or otherwise? I know how I'd politely decline in such a circumstance, but would-be mating rituals (and shooting them down) are more elaborate and have less time pressure --presuming it isn't after last-call.

and you don't consider dancing a "would-be mating ritual?"

I totally disagree.

I might if I didn't have a mic in my hand most times now. Being a caller has made socializing at club nights more... complicated.

huh. The callers/teachers at the dance camps I've been to usually had the easiest time getting laid...

You're right about that, friend. Socializing is nearly non-existent for me as a caller, and it's impossible to step into conversations in progress during the breaks. I don't take offense to it, since it feels part of my job as a caller to make OTHERS feel comfortable socializing, toxic dancer or no. It's a juggling act, and yes...complicated.

Yeah, even between tips, one's obliged to play host/hostess by providing a comfortable atmosphere & environment. These are also responsibilities of the club officers of course but it comes with the roll.

In the days of Jane Austen, people only danced with their same social class, [etc]

What makes you think there weren't toxic dancers in Jane Austen's time? Catherine Morland finds herself stuck dancing with the socially inept John Thorpe, when she'd rather be dancing with Henry Tilney, and Lizzie Bennet finds herself wanting to dance with George Wickham, but instead unwillingly snagged by the execrable Mr Collins, and later by the quite- undesirable- at- the- time Mr Darcy. There's nothing new about the problem of icky potential dance partners.

(nb I am NOT trying to say that your typical stalker-lookalike is really Fitzwilliam Darcy with pots o'cash underneath an unattractive exterior).

The problem is old, the solution is old. "no thank you, I'm a) sitting this one out / b) dancing with CD".

As to dealing with repeated unwanted invitations, Miss Manners advises (in order, for iterative approaches) 1) polite refusal 2) slightly less polite refusal 3) the cut direct [direct stare, cold "no thank you", turning your back]

"There are three choices - a) accept, b) decline because one has promised this dance to (someone else), or c) decline (because "I'm sitting this one out".) It's rude to say a simple "no" and then dance with someone else."

In the contra and English country dance world, these are still considered the only polite options.

With those limitations, my personal solution to a similar problem was this: clue a bunch of good friends in to the situation. Make sure one or more of them is within "asking me to dance" range at all times. If Creepy Guy heads my way, grab one of the others and run onto the floor.

Ask Kent if he remembers the Hairy Hound from Budapest...

Also, ask around. Is this guy creepy just to the new dancer or is this a general feeling among even the more experienced folk? If it's more universal, then you've got a bigger problem...that I have no idea how to address.

In the contra and English country dance world, these are still considered the only polite options.

There is one other that I sometimes use: "I'm trying to dance with new people for the first part of the evening." But I only say this when I mean it, and I've used it to turn down people I'd be perfectly happy to dance with.

oooo that's a good one!

***adds to internal etiquette file***

Ask Kent if he remembers the Hairy Hound from Budapest...

Kaparthy - that dreadful Hungarian - was HE there?

oozing charm from every pore, oiling his way across the floor? EEEEK!

the very one. usually with his fly wide open and coke-bottle-bottom glasses covered with a visible film of hair grease (because he never washed).

Interesting the variety of dancers you have in the replies! I have said "no, but thank you" in the past. Sometimes I've waffled and said I already had a partner (even though I'm standing there with my hand in the air)...I'd call that a gentle hint.

But then again, I don't dance often enough anymore for it to happen much. The 'toxic dancers' I saw at the Phoenix flyin mostly already know I don't care to dance with them. Except that one woman with terrible body odor.

I guess frequency of the request plays into it too. If it's a one-off, I grin and bear it - it's just 15 minutes out of my life. And frankly, who you square up with in an 8 person square bears little relationship to the fun of the square as a whole - unless the person is a really bad dancer.

Now if this is someone trying to hit on you, or someone who persistently makes a bee-line for you, then other remedies come to mind, including "I'd rather not - we don't seem to dance well together". Of course, as you get older, you get more comfortable being fairly blunt with people. I'd have had a much harder time with this in my 20's.

The other really difficult moment is - what do you do if the worst two dancers in the hall join a square you've already joined? Since you can't leave the square (that would be rude) you put it down to Karma getting you back for standing on that bug this morning...

If it's a one-off, I grin and bear it

Yeah, I do largely the same. I'll have to remember your "we don't seem to dance well together" phrase... it's direct without being accusatory or insulting.

The other really difficult moment is - what do you do if the worst two dancers in the hall join a square you've already joined?

Yeah, not much you can do except feign death but there's only so many times you can do that in a night before people start getting suspicous. Your hubby has it easy... he can always claim sudden arrhythmia. :-)

Square Dance Etiquette Question

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